Neidan vs Qigong

[WilliamChan]

Interesting, was this perhaps related to the hieroglyphic Dongba script used by the Naxi in Lijiang?

And what all types of non-explainable scenarios have you witnessed?

Agreed.  Not common to find posters here with their egos in check, despite many claims to the contrary...  Not to mention, detailed practice experience (high res) is a greater sign of true accomplishment than broadly vague (zoomed out) theories.

 

BTW, have you heard of and what is your opinion on these fellows:

李清雲 (Li Qingyun)

"

" (墨派)

王力平 (Wang Liping/Yongsheng)

(Dr. Jiang Feng)

 

Sorry.  I think I have made a mistake in translation.  I have checked the dictionary and it should be seal script / zhuàn tǐ.

About the scenarios, I re-think again, still, it could possibly be magical tricks that I do not know about the mechanism behind, it is better not to be shared.  Though, I believe him personally.

 

Li Qingyun, very few information I could find here.  He has taught some simple good qigongs though.  But about what really keeps him long life like this, it has just been said he was doing a special type of baguazhang.  I think very few people have received this teaching.

 

Never heard of 墨派, even after search in Chinese websites there are no results.  Not sure if it is an ancient lineage or a newly invented lineage.

 

Wang Liping, very famous in China.  I believe he is an extremely advanced neidan master.  I have read his books and knew some of his students.  Very reliable.

 

翟江峰, DONT BELIEVE IN HIM.  He is definitely a liar.  Horrible liar.  Is he making a fortune in western countries?  If yes it would be very sad...

http://www.appledaily.com.tw/appledaily/article/headline/20070715/3644468/   (HK media that discloses his stories)

Edited September 12, 2015 by WilliamChan

[WilliamChan]

William,

 

please do not do this. You will fry up your intestines for good. 

 

No need to thank me. Just do not do this and do not advise people to do this.

 

I feel that you do care about others a lot, as you are trying to remind me for many times, and trying to correct some of my incorrect vocabulary.  But the way you express appears to be challenging others on a very high ground, instead of caring about others on the same ground, which creates some bad feelings to me and perhaps others, haha.  I would feel much more joyful if we could talk in another way, so that I could better receive the beautiful goodness in your heart (I could feel it!).  Just want to share this with you as I treat you as my friend.  (Sorry for out of topic).

 

Thank you for your reminder.  I know about your concern, fake Yang burns the body.  But I have also explained a lot about the differences in between.  Real yang v.s. fake yang.  (Real yang at first might still feel hot, but will turn into cold when it is very refined;  also, when it becomes pill/medicine, it becomes feeling of whole body pure ecstasy, lights, etc.)

 

And about burning of kidney, it seems to be bad, but it is not.  It happens at the first stage when the kidney of modern people has lacked too much real yang.  So it would not burn forever.

 

It happens secondly when the Big Pill comes.  It is a very advanced stage and it is different from burning the nervous system in a bad way.  In sutra you could see 《仙佛合宗》说：须知大药生时，六根先自震动。这时丹田火炽，两肾汤煎，眼吐金光，耳后风生，脑后鹫鸣，身涌鼻搐一类，为得药之景，所得即为大药，这一时刻即叫“正子时”。Which means, "when the big Pill comes, the doors of six sensations first vibrate.  The dan tian feels like being burnt, the eyes shinning out golden light, winds appear behind your ears, XXX (certain type of animal called 鷲) yells / sound of a kind of musical instrument behind your brain, ..........."  This is not the only sutra that talks about this scene when the big Pill comes.  For exmaple, 《丹道九篇》, 《道鄉集》 ... Quan zhen master 伍沖虛 also says if you belong to Quanzhen you will meet the above scenes when the Big Pill comes.

 

Even if you are doing purely Non-doing teachings (unlike the traditional Neidan), you are supposed to meet these scenes.  Skipping the techniques (non-doing) does not mean to skipping the results (Dan).  馬丹陽 (I believe you belong to his lineage) also says “學道者無他，務在養炁而已。夫心液下降，腎炁上升，至於脾，元炁氤氳不散，則丹聚矣".  Even his practices focus mainly on Non-doing, he also mentions about how the Dan is formed.  How to get 腎炁 rises?  Micro-orbit.  How to get 心液 flows down?  Micro-orbit.  (If you tell me that they merge when one gets calm in meditation even without Micro-orbit, it is only a very low level of merging that is mentioned in Chinese Medicine, instead of the very intelligent Neidan which could actually extends the life-span.  No micro-orbit, no 去礦留金, no refinement of Chi, no Dan....... Unless you are extremely and rarely talented to go through all these through non-doing). How to get 元炁氤氳不散?  Many ways, wooden-golden orbit is the most common one.  And finally, how to get 丹聚?  Mental awareness on the Dan Tian after the above procedure to make the Shun and the Chi merge together.  These are the procedures of Neidan.  It does not matter how you feel your technique is better, but if you practice the correct lineage, the Dan of this and the Dan of that will always be the same (or slightly different).

 

You belong to Quanzhen, right?  You must be familiar with 王重陽, the master of all your Quanzhen masters, right?  He learns from 呂洞賓, 鍾離權 and 劉海蟾.  If you want to know about the essence of Quanzhen, I suggest you could read the writings of them all, or even 靈寶畢法 too.  They are all successors of Neidan.  The things I have mentioned here are about what they have taught.  Even though some might be lost or altered, the essence is always the same.  Yang, Yin, Jing, Chi, Shun, Dan, Micro-obit, External Pill, Internal Pill, Small Pill, Big Pill, Dao.  How can it be different?  清靜派, 遇仙派, 馬丹陽, or some other masters from Quanzhen, they might have different approach, a more straight forward / non-doing one, but the essence is essentially the same.  Don't get lost in a particular lineage or a particular special master.  This is all I am going to share with you.  Please excuse me for not further discussing Neidan with you as you seem to raise out similar vague statements for arguments. 

Edited September 12, 2015 by WilliamChan

[小梦想]

.

Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[WilliamChan]

(Deleted technique, as it is only advanced Qigong, but not Neidan)

Edited October 6, 2015 by WilliamChan

[WilliamChan]

As someone asks more about "翟江峰 (Dr. Jiang Feng)", I will post some information in here.  I have not personally met him but this is what I could find (some more info but not going to translate in here).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This person asks the lady to buy a bottle of water, and when he is testing whether the water contains sweet taste, his assistant has switched the "cover" (which contains sweet) of the bottle.

 

 

He asks the lady to shake the bottle for around 100 times (to spread the sweet into the water)

 

 

 

 

 

Secondly, about the blood thing, what he did is to hide up a needle inside his hands, and then throw it away secretly.  It is taken by the same news reporter, but this did not clearly show him in the picture.

 

 

And about his electrical power, one of his students after paying a very high price has disclosed that he just uses something like Tesla Coil to do it.

 

About breaking the stone, many Qigong people in China can do it.  Normal people can do it too with tricks.  

 

Many other things I believe are all magick tricks.  Many Chinese in the old times are magicians.  They do it on the street to make a living, and then some might sell some medicine afterwards after attracting a large group of crowd.  Few years ago there are some do the same under my apartment.  So there are many tricks handed down.  Judge carefully.  This is the reason why I write so much in the forum.

 

One last thing is, real master will only ask you to depend on yourself, not some kind of expensive medicine.  If you want medicine for health, better go to a good Chinese medicine doctor, instead of some magical medicine.  There will be no one single "best" / "most effective" medicine, as even the best doctor will alter the ingredients to suit the specific condition of that person.  Chinese medicine divides people into many subtle type of body condition and will be very careful in choosing ingredients.  If you see one is selling one single type of medicine and telling you that it is superior to all other medicine, probably it is fake.  This is the most basic principle of Chinese medicine.

 

Some martial art Qigong will use medicine too, but not expensive too, and they usually tell you all the ingredients and you buy for yourself, since it is not secretive things, just for cultivating a better body as a foundation for practice.  Also, they are only something same as Chinese Medicine, while the latter has much more knowledge in depth generally... (For sure!  They should be the master in this field!  Not qigong masters!)  So, nothing special, NO MAGICAL FORMULA.  Even if you have felt good in his formula, you will feel much better when you meet a good chinese medicine doctor.  Some might misguide people by giving something seemingly very effective which gives you a strong feeling, but, remember about the principle, good attached with bad, bad attached with good; if I give you something extremely "cultivating" and you might feel very energetic in short time, you will eventually feel something being burnt up and these do not really do good health to the body.  Softness is the King in all Taoist system.  We only improve things gradually...  No magical.  Tao is soft, simple, subtle and normal.  If you feel anything extremes, it is not in the Middle / Mid-way..............

 

Most importantly, for really advanced Neidan, these are not necessary eventually (or at the beginning already not necessary unless you are very weak).

 

Neidan will tell you the greatest medicine is in your body!

Edited September 13, 2015 by WilliamChan

[Aeran]

^Is any of that confirmed in any way? Because it just sounds like the usual pseudo-skeptic speculative "debunking" BS with nothing to back it up to me. Gotta remember that Western materialistic reductionism has spread over the Scientific community in most of the East as well, so a source isn't somehow more or less valid just because it's written in Chinese (especially given we know nothing about the author, etc).

 

Granted I don't know anything about Jiang Feng beyond what's been posted here, but I find it hard to believe that he would have so many people traveling to meet him (and often receiving major healings, years of training, etc) and coming away with a positive experience if he was a fraud. Not to mention that he's given demonstrations which I can't imagine any kind of "Tesla Coil" could achieve. Realistically, for him to be a fraud (in the sense of possessing no preterhuman abilities) would involve a huge number of people being in on the con, including people who have no motivation that I can see.

 

The problem with these demonstrations of energetic abilities is that effectively any of them can be replicated easily by sleight of hand, and even more easily through video editing. Just because something "can" be mimicked, doesn't automatically make it fake. I think when someone has as many positive testimonials as Jiang, they at least deserve the benefit of the doubt.

[WilliamChan]

^Is any of that confirmed in any way? Because it just sounds like the usual pseudo-skeptic speculative "debunking" BS with nothing to back it up to me. Gotta remember that Western materialistic reductionism has spread over the Scientific community in most of the East as well, so a source isn't somehow more or less valid just because it's written in Chinese (especially given we know nothing about the author, etc).

 

Granted I don't know anything about Jiang Feng beyond what's been posted here, but I find it hard to believe that he would have so many people traveling to meet him (and often receiving major healings, years of training, etc) and coming away with a positive experience if he was a fraud. Not to mention that he's given demonstrations which I can't imagine any kind of "Tesla Coil" could achieve. Realistically, for him to be a fraud (in the sense of possessing no preterhuman abilities) would involve a huge number of people being in on the con, including people who have no motivation that I can see.

 

The problem with these demonstrations of energetic abilities is that effectively any of them can be replicated easily by sleight of hand, and even more easily through video editing. Just because something "can" be mimicked, doesn't automatically make it fake. I think when someone has as many positive testimonials as Jiang, they at least deserve the benefit of the doubt.

 

You are right.  The evidence I post in here, or other information I have found in other sources, might NOT be enough to make a valid conclusion.  Also, my opinions involve my subjective judgement based on the magicians Qigong masters in the past, and my knowledge about what seems to be not possible / not healthy.  However, though it is hard to believe how can a large group of people fall inside it, if it is totally fake, I have found there is no lack of examples of Cult in the past, while most of the followers are very good people too.  So, maybe, or maybe not.

 

Anyway, please be careful especially when you have to pay a large sum of money for unknown medicine or any other things.  I suggest people find their inner medicine too if possible.

Edited September 13, 2015 by WilliamChan

[Taoist Texts]

Here we have william,  

 

When one is attained, shouldn't you help others, share your knowledge. Shouldn't you be kind, and have compassion for all things,  

'

 

These words are golden Rudolf;).

 

But, lets say there is someone, theoretically, lets call him 'Joe', who in his starry-eyed enthusiasm posts an instruction on "How to fry your brain in 3 easy steps if you persist hard enough'. And here is pour ol' me, saying 'Dudes don't do it, fried brain is no fun'. Would you say i am moderately compassionate and may be adding a lil bit of value? Its a purely academic question you know.

 

Anyway. while you ponder this over, I will post in my PPF on general misconceptions around these issues.

[JinlianPai]

As someone asks more about "翟江峰 (Dr. Jiang Feng)", I will post some information in here.  I have not personally met him but this is what I could find (some more info but not going to translate in here).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This person asks the lady to buy a bottle of water, and when he is testing whether the water contains sweet taste, his assistant has switched the "cover" (which contains sweet) of the bottle.

 

 

He asks the lady to shake the bottle for around 100 times (to spread the sweet into the water)

 

 

 

 

 

Secondly, about the blood thing, what he did is to hide up a needle inside his hands, and then throw it away secretly.  It is taken by the same news reporter, but this did not clearly show him in the picture.

 

 

And about his electrical power, one of his students after paying a very high price has disclosed that he just uses something like Tesla Coil to do it.

 

About breaking the stone, many Qigong people in China can do it.  Normal people can do it too with tricks.  

 

Many other things I believe are all magick tricks.  Many Chinese in the old times are magicians.  They do it on the street to make a living, and then some might sell some medicine afterwards after attracting a large group of crowd.  Few years ago there are some do the same under my apartment.  So there are many tricks handed down.  Judge carefully.  This is the reason why I write so much in the forum.

 

One last thing is, real master will only ask you to depend on yourself, not some kind of expensive medicine.  If you want medicine for health, better go to a good Chinese medicine doctor, instead of some magical medicine.  There will be no one single "best" / "most effective" medicine, as even the best doctor will alter the ingredients to suit the specific condition of that person.  Chinese medicine divides people into many subtle type of body condition and will be very careful in choosing ingredients.  If you see one is selling one single type of medicine and telling you that it is superior to all other medicine, probably it is fake.  This is the most basic principle of Chinese medicine.

 

Some martial art Qigong will use medicine too, but not expensive too, and they usually tell you all the ingredients and you buy for yourself, since it is not secretive things, just for cultivating a better body as a foundation for practice.  Also, they are only something same as Chinese Medicine, while the latter has much more knowledge in depth generally... (For sure!  They should be the master in this field!  Not qigong masters!)  So, nothing special, NO MAGICAL FORMULA.  Even if you have felt good in his formula, you will feel much better when you meet a good chinese medicine doctor.  Some might misguide people by giving something seemingly very effective which gives you a strong feeling, but, remember about the principle, good attached with bad, bad attached with good; if I give you something extremely "cultivating" and you might feel very energetic in short time, you will eventually feel something being burnt up and these do not really do good health to the body.  Softness is the King in all Taoist system.  We only improve things gradually...  No magical.  Tao is soft, simple, subtle and normal.  If you feel anything extremes, it is not in the Middle / Mid-way..............

 

Most importantly, for really advanced Neidan, these are not necessary eventually (or at the beginning already not necessary unless you are very weak).

 

Neidan will tell you the greatest medicine is in your body!

 

 

This makes sense to me.

 

The way the geng men pai goes about their training and marketing raises an eye brow.

 

I was recently talking to a famous well known chinese taoist master about Master Jiang and the rates he charges for dan pills and herbal treatments and we both agreed that it was just crazy.

 

Master Jiang is trained in the tcm medical field so im not taking that credit from him but why so much when herbs are so cheap especially if your actually in china.

 

Here's my point I can buy a 27 ingredient herbal formula for like $30 in AMERICA let alone china....

 

Ive heard of jiang charging thousands of dollars for herbal preparations.

 

Plus herbs have to be taken over a period of time.

 

Kung fu sects have herbal pills teas tonics jows and so forth this is also standard in china for the kung fu sects.

 

So why market yourself as super rare?!??!??

 

A more down to earth approach would be nice. 

Edited September 13, 2015 by JinlianPai

[forestofclarity]

Your posts have been interesting, William Chan.

 

I see a lot of similarities with Tummo and Kriya Yoga, anyway. Except without the visualizations and mantras. Which makes me wonder if (as I've come to suspect) that these are just add-ons. 

 

 

As you can see, the Tibetan Tummo / Indian Tantra Yoga has so many similarities with this exercise or Neidan too.

Edited September 13, 2015 by forestofemptiness

[taoguy]

I'm curious... do you know about Nan Huai Jin 南懷瑾? I know he's more of a Ch'an Buddhist but he studied under a Taoist master and apparently has attained the Tao himself. 

 

Because you talked about how stillness of yin produces great yang (or original yang)... It reminded me of how he says yang rises through the sushuma in stillness of yin as well, especially in breath cessation. It was described process by process in his book "Tao and Longevity"... What happens exactly when the real yang moves to places like the back of head, etc. He also said that letting the yang chi rise frees people of disease as well. He taught a kumbhaka type of breathing known as 

.

 

I would really love to read his chinese works but unfortunately my mandarin command is not that good...

Edited September 13, 2015 by taoguy

[JinlianPai]

 

 

 

And about his electrical power, one of his students after paying a very high price has disclosed that he just uses something like Tesla Coil to do it.

 

Most importantly, for really advanced Neidan, these are not necessary eventually (or at the beginning already not necessary unless you are very weak).

 

Neidan will tell you the greatest medicine is in your body!

 

 

 

Yes the the elixir is the most important.

 

The shaolin is very important and powerful in the old days they built temples on cliffs and moutians so they couldnt be raided by outside forces. The monks traveled and healed  protected and served the citizens the donations that were given were taken back to the temple and melted down into golden or silver buddha statues so they couldnt be stolen.

 

The shaolin took powerful neidan alchemy and converted it into internal kung fu.

 

Herbs circulate the chi remove blockages and increase the vibration.

 

I dont think master Jiang has attained the 8th star which is the divine heavenly force when all 3 gings come together.

 

GengMenPai claiming greatness while students cant fajing thru the 7 stars and dont even properly understand the 7 star theory...

Edited September 13, 2015 by JinlianPai

[Aeran]

I have no idea how much he does or doesn't charge for his herbal treatments (anyone able to cite specific numbers?), but he's not forcing anyone to buy them and the guy hardly looks like he's rolling in money. Gary Clyman sells books/dvd's for several grand and personal training for even more, JAJ teaches for $800/hour, etc. but nobody uses that to suggest that they're frauds.

 

Teachers have to eat like everyone else, and he's not only teaching but running a hospital, the money for that has to come from somewhere.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Aeran

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[Taoist Texts]

 nearly died from the damage. My organs were literally eating themselves up, with horrible puss forming under my skin, disgusting green liquid that stank so much it cleared a hospital room. 

 

I am very impressed. It means you have a great potential, if you have managed to hurt yourself with incorrect training that much, imagine what can u do with correct one.

I would really like to know more about your system and what you do, ...All the best to you and your training.

i will keep on posting little essays here. Thanks man, likewise.

[allinone]

in my case there is i do something i can do only lying down but if i master it i can do it sitting, then i can do it behind computer listening music or reading then i can do it by walking and then it becomes unconscious.

 

unconscious? well it becomes a virtue what you do naturally in every situation. Isn't that the goal? or is there something else im missing?