Liu Huayang

[Taoist Texts]

Yes or no?

[Taoist Texts]

Is this  how the transmission ceremony is done in your school with lips  being moistened with blood  as Ge says?

 

It is a simple question.

 

Yes or no? 

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Please open your eyes:

 

 

歃血
shàxuè
 
[smear the blood of a sacrifice on the mouth - an ancient form of swearing an oath] 古人盟会时, 微饮牲血, 或含于口中, 或涂于口旁, 以示信守誓言的诚意
王当歃血而定从, 次者吾君, 次者遂。 --《史记·平原君虞卿列传》

 

 

I won't tell you a thing about our ceremony. Don't feed a troll 

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Is there anything else you can notice in Ge Hong words except ancient form of oath?

Do you see any words about a necessity of having a Teacher and impossibility to learn by books there?

 

I can point you out.

 

Ge Hong:

 

"Besides of that a lot of the most important instructions are not written there [in books] at all...

 

Since these instructions point to the depths and lead far away, so even if to write them down, yet a person who haven't recieved them from his Teacher would understand nothing from them"

 

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[Taoist Texts]

I won't tell you a thing about our ceremony. 

I dont need you to:)

 

You see that leaves us with 2 possibilities:

 

 

A. You did not smear your lips with blood. Which means you did not receive a proper transmission according to Ge, and you can not understand what he means about teachers and texts.

 

 

OR

 

 

B. You did  smear your lips with blood,  sacrificing an animal in a horrible ritual. Which means you are not a Taoist at all, and you can not understand what he means about teachers and texts.

 

Check and Mate

 

 

Like i said this is getting boring. You are amazingly bad at what you are trying to do here. I assure you in that paragraph there are another 2-3 bombs which you can not see, but which will make you shoot yrself in the foot nice and good some more

Edited December 10, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[A.A.Khokhlov]

I dont need you to:)

 

You see that leaves us with 2 possibilities:

 

A. You did not smear your lips with blood. Which means you did not receive a proper transmission according to Ge, and you can not understand what he means about teachers and texts.

OR

B. You did  smear your lips with blood,  sacrificing an animal in a horrible ritual. Which means you are not a Taoist at all, and you can not understand what he means about teachers and texts.

Check and Mate

 

Like i said this is getting boring. You are amazingly bad at what you are trying to do here. I assure you in that paragraph there are another 2-3 bombs which you can not see, but which will make you shoot yrself in the foot nice and good some more

 

Being profanus, how would you know that baishi ceremonies in different Neidan schools in specific period of time may differ each from another, but the requirement of verbal transmission from Teacher to student - no. We are initiated members of a number of Traditions and know that well.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Edited December 10, 2016 by A.A.Khokhlov

[Taoist Texts]

 

baishi ceremonies in different Neidan schools in specific period of time may differ each from another,

but the requirement of verbal transmission from Teacher to student - no. 

 

Says who?

 

If one thing can differ - then another thing can differ too. It is basic logic.

 

Check and Mate

 

 

Your AK-47 which you use to shoot yrslef in the foot is on automatic fire lately . Good thing you have  unlimited ammo. heh)

 

Anyway, I was only talking to you to amuse myself while (being a professional chinese translator) i was working on my comp. Now you bore me. As opposed to some other peeps here i have a life so bye-bye. Tomorrow i will clean this thread from spam.

 

 

 

 

  Edited December 10, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[Astral Monk]

Louis Komjathy - 2013 - ‎HistoryA Quanzhen Daoist Anthology Louis Komjathy ... the Chinese Daoist Association CDA/CTA), which, it should be recognized, is primarily a political organization.

 

 

lol

 

8)

Edited December 10, 2016 by Astral Monk

[Astral Monk]

If one thing can differ - then another thing can differ too. It is basic logic.

 

 

Actually 'basic logic' tells us that we cant make inference on the state of wholly other things based on observation of one thing--thats a fallacy. The step from reasoning about the individual case to the universal case is invalid.

 

check and mate lol

 

8)

[A.A.Khokhlov]

If one thing can differ - then another thing can differ too. It is basic logic.

 

Check and Mate

 

False logic again. If two people have different height it doesn't mean their inner organs may differ.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Edited December 10, 2016 by A.A.Khokhlov

[effilang]

*cracks thread door door open slightly and pokes head in to see if will not get hit by flying book"

 

oh, ok... phew. The coast look clear   

 

I just want to pop in quickly, to drop a few ideas to stir some thinking.

I'd like to address the topic of: Can know alchemy of ones self vs Can only know alchemy from a teacher.

 

I will not speak in a matter of fact way so as to not offend anyone.

Again I just want to maybe trigger a thought process.

 

So. There is a theory in Daoism that says that while the fetus is undergoing development in the body up until around the first year post delivery into the world, the primary operating nature is that of the pre-heavenly nature and spirit (xiantian zhi shen), while the post-heavenly nature (houtian zhi shen) has yet to fully seat itself on the throne of active consciousness.

 

So it is like the Xiantian Shen is the rightful Emperor that gets overthrown by his Military General; Houtian Shen.

 

This condition of being is represented by the empty circle of Daoism; Wuji:

 

 

For the purpose of this illustration, for now just imagine the white circle to be a glowing orb of radiant brightness; an orb whose complex of spiritual energy in one aspect contains all our former life time memories and experiences. It is pristine and clear and tranquil and nothing gets in the way of it radiating its information outwards into the world through the medium of the physical body which it now occupies.

 

Because there is no obstruction from the acquired mind yet, it is said that at this age we are as close to the mind of the Dao as possible in earthly form : )

 

So a wise guy once said:

Carrying body and soul and embracing the one,
Can you avoid separation?
Attending fully and becoming supple,
Can you be as a newborn babe?

 

As practical evidence of this, we have many instances throughout our lives when children around this age and slightly older, are able to tap into talents and information from former lives and express them through their current body. Things that they have not learned yet themselves ie: amazing mathematical feats, amazing feats of artistry, playing instruments, speaking foreign languages, recollecting event from their former life on earth etc.

 

As development progresses, the 5 bodily senses continue their operation, absorbing new data from the environment and creating new relative concepts based on their experience of reality - the acquired consciousness begins to form, but here's the catch. At this point only one consciousness can actively seat on the throne, so as the acquired mind develops, the light of the primordial mind begins to wane... becoming eclipsed like a moon that looses its brightness, only slightly visible on the edges.

 

 

Thus the 5 thieves, steal the absolute radiance of the primordial spirit and replace it with relative ideas, where an IDEA is the coagulated result of data absorbed through the 5 external senses and conveyed to the brain by electrical impulses to fuse together into one "relative belief".

 

Essentially, we can both look at the same cloud in the sky, but because you are a biologist while I am a vegetable farmer; you might see the cloud to be in the shape of a complex protein, while i might see a simple potato. Yet, both experiences of life albeit it relative are both completely valid.

 

What if my eyes are less sensitive to the red wavelength and the color of an apple we both look at appear slightly different? What the skin on my hands is rougher than yours because I'm a blacksmith while you are a sake maker that has some of the softest skin on their hands? How would some soft silk feel to each of us relative to our senses? 

 

This is relative reality.

What is absolute reality? It is that which the Houtian Shen cannot touch and it It is in this question:

 

What is the silk and what is the apple when neither of us are there to experience it?:

Empty, but not Void.

 

How does it smell then, how does it feel, what is its structure and composition when there is no external consciousness to project onto it?

 

When the acquired consciousness thus obstructs the original mind, we also begin to lose our conscious access to this former lifetime information. Then the child who could draw like a master artist forgets how to do it and the one who could speak another language forgets how to speak it. It has not disappeared, but because the bandwidth of the connection between the Xiantian Zhi Shen and the Houtian Zhi Shen is limited (like an ethernet cable), the one that is drawing more information gets priority. And which of our minds is costantly active? The acquired mind of course, the thinking and intellectual mind. While the primordial Xiantian Zhi Shen resides in stillness.

 

Further evidence to this is that when one practices properly and begins to spark back the original mind into burning bright once again, we begin to recollect our past life events, our inherent talents also begin to trigger again and much more.

 

So the connection between Xiantian Shen and Houtian Shen is always there. The potential of the primordial is always seeded in the postnatal nature, ready to bet watered. How do we do it? By turning the light of the awareness around from projecting outside to project inside. When the awareness does not go outside and follow thoughts, when it resides in stillness, it begins to match the vibration of the original mind. This is why they say:

 

Leave your front door open, leave your back door open. Let your thoughts come and go, just dont serve them tea.

 

This is why it's very important for parents to carefully monitor their children at this age when they express some type of skill or knowing beyond knowing. Because if they catch it, it is like they hold a thread to the original mind and if they cultivate it by encouraging their child in this activity, that thread alone can serve to maintain a strong connection to the Xiantian Zhi Shen, giving that child a much greater chance of success in spiritual cultivation that other's whom did not receive that type of nurturing attention and were left to completely obscure their original nature, as naturally happens in Taiji.

 

This is also why those artists who catch that thread and cultivate it into their maturity, when they perform their art they always feel like they are having a divine experience. Whether it's playing music, or painting or doing a mathematical equations. It's because they were lucky enough to have good parents that encouraged their intuitive and innate divine creativity rather than supressing it. That's why I believe what Sir Ken Robinsons said in his famous TED talk; that school kills creativity, but as a Daoist, we can see the effect and rapidity of loss is much deeper than just creativity.

 

So, now that the foundation of my question has been built. Here is my question.

 

Do you believe that those whom have made Neidan progress in their former lives are incapable of accessing, retrieving and rekindling such information - bringing it to the foreground of conscious activity, youwei, where its experiential wisdom can be used to propel someone along the path of Neidan, at least to the level of their former life time's achievement?

 

The Yang energy of development takes quite a while to PEAK before Yin begins to arise strongly, maybe even up to puberty? Is this not one of the reasons why children make such good students of spiritual cultivation, because among other things of alchemical significance, they are far more in touch with their intuition and original mind as a result of having a less dominant Houtian Shen?

 

Would such a scenario not constitute the possibility of Neidan practice without the need for a teacher?

 

Maybe they will eventually need a teacher, because they only got to 60% of the way in their former lifetime, but how many people today even get to such a number? How many even get to 10% or even 1%?

 

Anyway. Just speculating as usual

 

*flies away

Edited December 10, 2016 by effilang

[Brian]

*cracks thread door door open slightly and pokes head in to see if will not get hit by flying book"

 

oh, ok... phew. The coast look clear

 

I just want to pop in quickly, to drop a few ideas to stir some thinking.

I'd like to address the topic of: Cannot know alchemy of ones self vs Can only know alchemy from a teacher.

 

I will not speak in a matter of fact way so as to not offend anyone.

Again I just want to maybe trigger a thought process.

 

So. There is a theory in Daoism that says that while the fetus is undergoing development in the body up until around the first year post delivery into the world, the primary operating nature is that of the pre-heavenly nature and spirit (xiantian zhi shen), while the post-heavenly nature (houtian zhi shen) has yet to fully seat itself on the throne of active consciousness.

 

So it is like the Xiantian Shen is the rightful Emperor that gets overthrown by his Military General; Houtian Shen.

 

This condition of being is represented by the empty circle of Daoism; Wuji:

 

Wuji.jpg

 

For the purpose of this illustration, for now just imagine the white circle to be a glowing orb of radiant brightness; an orb whose complex of spiritual energy in one aspect contains all our former life time memories and experiences. It is pristine and clear and tranquil and nothing gets in the way of it radiating its information outwards into the world through the medium of the physical body which it now occupies.

 

Because there is no obstruction from the acquired mind yet, it is said that at this age we are as close to the mind of the Dao as possible in earthly form : )

 

So a wise guy once said:

Carrying body and soul and embracing the one,

Can you avoid separation?

Attending fully and becoming supple,

Can you be as a newborn babe?

 

As practical evidence of this, we have many instances throughout our lives when children around this age and slightly older, are able to tap into talents and information from former lives and express them through their current body. Things that they have not learned yet themselves ie: amazing mathematical feats, amazing feats of artistry, playing instruments, speaking foreign languages, recollecting event from their former life on earth etc.

 

As development progresses, the 5 bodily senses continue their operation, absorbing new data from the environment and creating new relative concepts based on their experience of reality - the acquired consciousness begins to form, but here's the catch. At this point only one consciousness can actively seat on the throne, so as the acquired mind develops, the light of the primordial mind begins to wane... becoming eclipsed like a moon that looses its brightness, only slightly visible on the edges.

 

Taiji.jpg

 

Thus the 5 thieves, steal the absolute radiance of the primordial spirit and replace it with relative ideas, where an IDEA is the coagulated result of data absorbed through the 5 external senses and conveyed to the brain by electrical impulses to fuse together into one "relative belief".

 

Essentially, we can both look at the same cloud in the sky, but because you are a biologist while I am a vegetable farmer; you might see the cloud to be in the shape of a complex protein, while i might see a simple potato. Yet, both experiences of life albeit it relative are both completely valid.

 

What if my eyes are less sensitive to the red wavelength and the color of an apple we both look at appear slightly different? What the skin on my hands is rougher than yours because I'm a blacksmith while you are a sake maker that has some of the softest skin on their hands? How would some soft silk feel to each of us relative to our senses?

 

This is relative reality.

What is absolute reality? It is in this question:

 

What is the silk and what is the apple when neither of us are there to experience it?

How does it smell then, how does it feel, what is its structure and composition when there is no external consciousness to project onto it?

 

When the acquired consciousness thus obstructs the original mind, we also begin to lose our conscious access to this former lifetime information. Then the child who could draw like a master artist forgets how to do it and the one who could speak another language forgets how to speak it. It has not disappeared, but because the bandwidth of the connection between the Xiantian Zhi Shen and the Houtian Zhi Shen is limited (like an ethernet cable), the one that is drawing more information gets priority. And which of our minds is costantly active? The acquired mind of course, the thinking and intellectual mind. While the primordial Xiantian Zhi Shen resides in stillness.

 

Further evidence to this is that when one practices properly and begins to spark back the original mind into burning bright once again, we begin to recollect our past life events, our inherent talents also begin to trigger again and much more.

 

So the connection between Xiantian Shen and Houtian Shen is always there. The potential of the primordial is always seeded in the postnatal nature, ready to bet watered. How do we do it? By turning the light of the awareness around from projecting outside to project inside. When the awareness does not go outside and follow thoughts, when it resides in stillness, it begins to match the vibration of the original mind. This is why they say:

 

Leave your front door open, leave your back door open. Let your thoughts come and go, just dont serve them tea.

 

This is why it's very important for parents to carefully monitor their children at this age when they express some type of skill or knowing beyond knowing. Because if they catch it, it is like they hold a thread to the original mind and if they cultivate it by encouraging their child in this activity, that thread alone can serve to maintain a strong connection to the Xiantian Zhi Shen, giving that child a much greater chance of success in spiritual cultivation that other's whom did not receive that type of nurturing attention and were left to completely obscure their original nature, as naturally happens in Taiji.

 

This is also why those artists who catch that thread and cultivate it into their maturity, when they perform their art they always feel like they are having a divine experience. Whether it's playing music, or painting or doing a mathematical equations. It's because they were lucky enough to have good parents that encouraged their intuitive and innate divine creativity rather than supressing it. That's why I believe what Sir Ken Robinsons said in his famous TED talk; that school kills creativity, but as a Daoist, we can see the effect and rapidity of loss is much deeper than just creativity.

 

So, now that the foundation of my question has been built. Here is my question.

 

Do you believe that those whom have made Neidan progress in their former lives are incapable of accessing, retrieving and rekindling such information - bringing it to the foreground of conscious activity, youwei, where its experiential wisdom can be used to propel someone along the path of Neidan, at least to the level of their former life time's achievement?

 

The Yang energy of development takes quite a while to PEAK before Yin begins to arise strongly, maybe even up to puberty? Is this not one of the reasons why children make such good students of spiritual cultivation, because among other things of alchemical significance, they are far more in touch with their intuition and original mind as a result of having a less dominant Houtian Shen?

 

Would such a scenario not constitute the possibility of Neidan practice without the need for a teacher?

 

Maybe they will eventually need a teacher, because they only got to 60% of the way in their former lifetime, but how many people today even get to such a number? How many even get to 10% or even 1%?

 

Anyway. Just speculating as usual

 

*flies away

^^^No, they are not incapable.

[damdao]

I know many Chinese use genealogy to make money.

 

For example, someone's last name is Liu, he said his ancestor is Liu hua yang, but he does not know Liu had no son or daughter.

 

The similar in tai jii 拳, and ba jii 拳.

 

Chinese people doubt the genealogy.

 

Why you believe it so much?

 

This statements are not true. Chinese people depend on genealogy even for basic things as to how to speak to a relative. So the alusion to money is ridiculous. A mere strategy devised in order that readers associate automatically lineage with money-makers. Many families has a genealogy book. From there they chose the names of the newborns. You know that, you are not so young as to not take in account genealogy or lineage.

Here, for instance, a family of Chinese (Taiwanese) doctors specialized in ophthalmology has registers of ten generations of practitioners. I know the 9th and 10th generation doctors and I have seen the familiar medical book. So lineage and genealogy matters a lot.

All nations molded by confucian thought use genealogy, achievements and so on in the daily relations.

[damdao]

Wu left his family at 20 years old and was a daoist apprentice since 16 years old. It his highly unlikely that he had any kids. I think somebody pulled a fast one on you.

 

http://qianfengdaoismuk.weebly.com/master-wu-shouyang-202372343238451-1574-1644.html

 

According to other accounts he found his master when he was 31 years old. So plenty of time for children...

 

See  New Excursions from the Hall of Harmonious Wind by Cunren Liu, p. 186

[awaken]

This statements are not true. Chinese people depend on genealogy even for basic things as to how to speak to a relative. So the alusion to money is ridiculous. A mere strategy devised in order that readers associate automatically lineage with money-makers. Many families has a genealogy book. From there they chose the names of the newborns. You know that, you are not so young as to not take in account genealogy or lineage.

Here, for instance, a family of Chinese (Taiwanese) doctors specialized in ophthalmology has registers of ten generations of practitioners. I know the 9th and 10th generation doctors and I have seen the familiar medical book. So lineage and genealogy matters a lot.

All nations molded by confucian thought use genealogy, achievements and so on in the daily relations.

If you can read Chinese, you can find many informations about 陳長興 and 蔣發

 

The Chen school think 陳長興' family is the inventor of tai ji 拳.

Other schools do no think so.

Other school provided a lot of evidences to improve this.

Other schools think 張三丰is the inventor of tai ji 拳

 

And there are the same in 八極拳

 

You can find a lot of informations in google.

 

I do not mean the 族譜 is all fake.

 

But I mean it can be changed because of benefits

 

In China, there are many wars for many years.

 

Many people die in these wars.

 

Something was missing between wars.

 

Some people created it again.

 

So you can find the informations like this.

 

One school think they own the tradition.

 

But another school have another evidence to say it is not true.

 

So it is very hard to know who is right.

 

族譜is not 100% right.

 

http://www.xingong.com/taiji/TC/creator/creator_talk5.html

 

答：陳王廷是明末清初時期的人，說其是太極拳創始人的主要依據就是其《遺詞》中說的：“歎當年，披堅執銳，掃蕩群寇，幾次顛險。蒙恩賜，枉徒然；到如今，年老殘喘，只落得《黃庭》一卷隨身伴。悶來時造拳，忙來時耕田，趁餘閒，教下些弟子兒孫，成龍成虎任方便”。這裡只提到他“悶來時造拳”，並未說造的是太極拳。如果他沒有留下他創拳的理法，還可以猜測他創的可能是太極拳，然而他卻偏偏為子孫留下了他創拳的理法《拳經總歌》。他到底造的是什麼拳可以從作為其創拳理法的《拳經總歌》中得知，在其《拳經總歌》中並無半個太極拳的字樣，也根本找不到被陳式太極拳和各派太極拳奉為太極拳核心綱要的“掤、捋、擠、按、採、挒、肘、靠，進、退、顧、盼、定”太極拳十三總勢的半個字樣。其《拳經總歌》也從未被包括陳式太極拳在內的各派太極拳當過太極拳練拳的經典。相反，太極拳一詞和其核心綱要“掤、捋、擠、按、採、挒、肘、靠，進、退、顧、盼、定”十三總勢卻首次出現在一個跟陳家溝毫無血緣關係的外姓人王宗嶽寫的《太極拳譜》中，王宗嶽的《太極拳譜》卻成了各派太極拳練拳的經典著作。從上可知陳王廷可能創過拳，但並非太極拳。

 

 

答：陳長興是清乾隆年間（1771－1853）人，其傳太極拳是在晚年，而和他在同一時代卻比他年長一代有餘的山西人王宗嶽（1736-1795）在他以前就精於太極拳是不爭的事實，這從王宗嶽留下的《太極拳譜》可以得到證實。另外，陳長興本人非但不承認太極拳是他所創，也並不承認是陳王廷所創，當時在陳家溝並無陳王廷創太極拳之說，都承認太極拳是由外傳至陳家溝的。太極拳起源于陳家溝和陳卜或陳王廷創太極拳之說是陳長興和陳清平以後的陳氏後人發明的。

 

 

 

 

 

族譜緣起的歷史條件，是宗法制度在中國的確立。周代，王族階層就開始編纂族譜，以明確自己家族成員的血統及等級，這時候編族譜是王族的特權一般百姓無資格編族譜。

至東漢，全國望族競相修譜，士族採用族譜來表明自己純正的貴族血統，國家也嚴格考查士族的族譜來取士命官，因而修譜是士族的一件十分重要的事情。社會對族譜修訂有嚴格的規定，寒族很難冒入豪門。

到唐朝，唐朝統治者較為開明，為了招攬國家可用之才，採用了科舉取仕的制度，寒族得以進入高級領導層，族譜失去了政治功能，譜學漸漸式微。

至北宋，譜學在民間氾濫成災，修撰族譜成為民間一件平常的事情，國家社會也無法再嚴格管理，於是這個時期，中國民間開始大規模修族譜，而民間宗族為光耀門楣，往往不顧事實，找一個名人作自己的祖先，混淆了歷史真實。年代久遠後，再也很難辨識事實之真相。

其實魏晉南北朝也已出現偽造族譜的現象，掌握特權的寒族就想方設法修改族譜使自己的家族搖身變得高貴，而在後世民間偽造族譜的情況那就更嚴重。

民間社會，族譜偽造祖先世系是一個普遍的現象。族譜不能做為事實論據已是史學界的常識。

 

家譜上的祖先都是名人

 

導演們可以說:“我的攝影機不說謊”，可是，決不會有人敢說，“我的家譜不說謊”。

家譜是以記載一個血緣家族的世系與事蹟為主要內容的史類文獻。雖是史類文獻，事實上，家譜的要旨和核心就是在於要隱惡揚善，蒙蔽真相。古代的家譜纂修，出於抬高家族地位和聲望起見，在追溯先祖時，必然要上溯到一個名人或皇帝方才甘休，哪怕是冒認攀附也行。來自鮮卑的地主豪強李世民為了附會自己是老子的後人，把道教立為唐代國教；出身草莽的朱元璋為了與朱熹結下親緣關係，抬高了理學的地位。而且，出現了凡是姓范的必是范仲淹的後代，姓王的都是王羲之後代的現象，而歷史上的壞人都是既沒有祖先父母，也沒有子孫後裔的。

早在唐朝滅亡以後，經歷了五代十國時期的連年戰亂和社會動盪，傳世的家譜幾乎喪失殆盡，以至宋代時就已很少能見到舊譜，許多家族的世系也因此斷了線、失了傳。流傳至今的古代家譜，大多是明清兩代纂修的。明清時還出現了專門替人偽造家譜世系的“譜匠”，利用事先準備、不具姓氏的通用家譜作為“道具”，每當有人延請修譜，填上姓氏即大功告成。這樣出來的家譜幾乎一個面孔，所出現的歐陽修、蘇軾、朱熹、文天祥、方孝孺等名人的題跋序言，其實都是這些“譜匠”的傑作。不瞭解真相的人還將其視為祖傳之寶。

 

第二次轉貼者補述：

 

祖上沒有任過漢族官職為丟臉，甚至以自己的土著出身為羞，也想方設法偽造族譜，把自己粉飾為漢族名門之後。唐代詩人劉禹錫一系列歌詠湖南和廣東連山地區“莫搖”、“蠻撩”的詩歌中多有描述，如《佘田行》寫道：『何處好佘田? ... 自顯貴郡望。』

 

明清時還出現了專門替人偽造家譜世系的“譜匠”，利用事先準備、不具姓氏的通用家譜作為“道具”，每當有人延請修譜，填上姓氏即大功告成。這樣出來的家譜幾乎一個面孔，所出現的歐陽修、蘇軾、朱熹、文天祥、方孝孺等名人的題跋序言，其實都是這些“譜匠”的傑作。不瞭解真相的人還將其視為祖傳之寶。查查這方面的資料，祖譜造假，特別是明清時，是一種普通現象。這幾百年，也就是明清時期，不正是那些譜匠行當盛行時，專門偽造了許多嗎？

 

是不是古代當過官的人都有護身符呢？ 像祖宗翁軒刺史，還有蘇東坡、韓愈、范仲淹等繁殖了大量的後代，而不受戰亂的影響。譜匠還不瞭解內情嗎？嶺南人祖譜上寫的祖先都是從中原過去的，而且都是士大夫，都是當官的。也可以說，凡是歷史上的名人後代都不受戰亂影響，都有幾十萬、幾百萬的後代。宋代中國有近一億人口，男人怎麼也得有4000多萬人。（按正常男女各占一半的比例），一個蘇東坡繁殖到現在就達到30多萬人，那麼宋代4000多萬男人到現在會繁殖多少？地球還能放得下這麼多人嗎？

 

 

If you can read Chinese, the article is clear enough to let you know 族譜 is not 100% right.

 

There is even a business which make fake 族譜 for you.

 

All you need is to pay money to him.

 

Then you may have an ancestor who was a emperor.

Edited December 11, 2016 by awaken

[damdao]

Actually 'basic logic' tells us that we cant make inference on the state of wholly other things based on observation of one thing--thats a fallacy. The step from reasoning about the individual case to the universal case is invalid.

 

check and mate lol

 

8)

 

Well, since many moths ago Taoists Texts was exposed for using only fallacies. Because of that I call him "sophist", in the common use of the word.

Here two examples in which he was debunked and caught in his own net:

http://thedaobums.co...nix-to-penglai/

http://thedaobums.co...-dummies/page-4

[damdao]

If you can read Chinese, you can find many informations about 陳長興 and 蔣發

 

The Chen school think 陳長興' family is the inventor of tai ji 拳.

Other schools do no think so.

Other school provided a lot of evidences to improve this.

Other schools think 張三丰is the inventor of tai ji 拳

 

And there are the same in 八極拳

 

You can find a lot of informations in google.

 

I do not mean the 族譜 is all fake.

 

But I mean it can be changed because of benefits

 

In China, there are many wars for many years.

 

(...)

 

 

One school think they own the tradition.

 

But another school have another evidence to say it is not true.

 

So it is very hard to know who is right.

 

族譜is not 100% right.

(...)

 

That lineages offer historical problems is one thing, but to say that Chinese don't believe lineages when they are molded by them is another.

I will leave aside the rethoric of war, there are wars for many reasons, lineage being the less usual I think.

But, because of the difficulty to know a real teacher is important to study the classics. In order to ask the right questions. Of course, such kind of disciple must have a high degree of scholarship and selfcultivation.

Because of that I put Walkers questions as an example of questions from deep study:

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42697-yuxianpai-wuliupai-tradition-doctrine/?p=723815

 

And this kind of questions, I think, is something that Opendao tell us some years ago, this and the importance of right knowledge in order to test a system and a master.

So, if we have doubts about a lineage, master, school, etc., we need to do the research in order to be able to find the right criteria for judge them. This take time and effort. Is not something one can do with "common sense" or disinformation.

[awaken]

That lineages offer historical problems is one thing, but to say that Chinese don't believe lineages when they are molded by them is another.

I will leave aside the rethoric of war, there are wars for many reasons, lineage being the less usual I think.

But, because of the difficulty to know a real teacher is important to study the classics. In order to ask the right questions. Of course, such kind of disciple must have a high degree of scholarship and selfcultivation.

Because of that I put Walkers questions as an example of questions from deep study:

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42697-yuxianpai-wuliupai-tradition-doctrine/?p=723815

 

And this kind of questions, I think, is something that Opendao tell us some years ago, this and the importance of right knowledge in order to test a system and a master.

So, if we have doubts about a lineage, master, school, etc., we need to do the research in order to be able to find the right criteria for judge them. This take time and effort. Is not something one can do with "common sense" or disinformation.

When we were a beginner, it is hard to judge who is right or wrong.

 

So we should have an open mind.

 

Every school has a part of the truth.

 

But we may need a teacher to lead us in cultivation.

 

But we do not need to treat the school as a religion.

 

Some people do treat his school as a religion.

 

But someone is not.

 

It is your choice.

 

Everyone can have his own choice.

 

But we can see many achievers do not only follow one school or one teacher all his life.

 

If your goal of life is to stay in one school , that is fine.

 

But if your goal is to achieve golden dan, you need to know more beyond your school and your teacher.

 

You need to have the courage to go your own way.

[YiYinYiYang]

.

Edited August 12, 2017 by YiYinYiYang

[Taoist Texts]

According to other accounts he found his master when he was 31 years old. So plenty of time for children...

 

See  New Excursions from the Hall of Harmonious Wind by Cunren Liu, p. 186

 

 

Basically you say that your source

 

1. Does NOT say that Liu had any children.

2. Does NOT say that he transmitted to a son.

 

Your source is one more evidence that  the genealogy is false then.

 

 

 

 

False logic again. If two people have different height it doesn't mean their inner organs may differ.

 

 

Sigh....There is this thing called surgery. It involves removing and/or modifying internal organs.

 

So among people of different heights you  WILL find differing ones with no spleen, uterus, a kidney, appendix and so on.

 

 

What is the name of your planet? Have you come in peace?

[A.A.Khokhlov]

I do not mean the 族譜 is all fake.

But I mean it can be changed because of benefits

In China, there are many wars for many years.

Many people die in these wars.

Something was missing between wars.

Some people created it again.

 

If we are speaking of a random man on in front of the temple door who claims he is a Lü Dongbing's descendant - it might be true. But if we are speking of a large family and large School with many disciples - it is impossible to fool all of them, putting there completely random person.

 

Chinese not only cherish their genealogy. They wouldn't stupidly follow a person with a fake one.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Edited December 11, 2016 by A.A.Khokhlov

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Basically you say that your source

 

1. Does NOT say that Liu had any children.

2. Does NOT say that he transmitted to a son.

 

Your source is one more evidence that  the genealogy is false then.

 

Sigh....There is this thing called surgery. It involves removing and/or modifying internal organs.

 

So among people of different heights you  WILL find differing ones with no spleen, uterus, a kidney, appendix and so on.

 

What is the name of your planet? Have you come in peace?

 

Inner organs are basically zàng-fǔ in TCM. Pity you don't know even that. I obviously wasn't talking about invalids (disabled person).

 

By the way, what about learning without a Teacher according to Ge Hong? If you need I can remind you.

 

Ge Hong:

 

"Besides of that a lot of the most important instructions are not written there [in books] at all...

 

Since these instructions point to the depths and lead far away, so even if to write them down, yet a person who haven't recieved them from his Teacher would understand nothing from them"

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Edited December 11, 2016 by A.A.Khokhlov

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

Chinese not only cherish their genealogy. They wouldn't stupidly follow a person with a fake one.

 

Falun Gong founder Li Hongzhi has lived in the United States since 1996, and Falun Gong has a sizable global constituency. Inside China, estimates suggest that tens of millions continued to practice Falun Gong in spite of the persecution.^[7][8][9] Hundreds of thousands are estimated to practice Falun Gong outside China in over 70 countries worldwide.^[10][11]

 

[Taoist Texts]

 I obviously wasn't talking about invalids (disabled person).

 

No you obviously shot yourself in the foot one more time.

[Taoist Texts]

Patriarch Ge Hong, Baopuzi:

 

 

吾非生而知之，又非少而信之，始者蒙蒙，亦如子耳，既觀奧祕之宏修，而恨離困之不早也。

五經之事，注說炳露，初學之徒，猶可不解。豈況金玉札，神仙之經，至要之言，又多不書。

登壇歃血，乃傳口訣，

苟非其人，雖裂地連城，金璧滿堂，不妄以示之。

夫指深歸遠，雖得其書而不師受，猶仰不見首，俯不知跟

所謂不知而作也。

 

I am by no means a person, endowed with inborn knowledge of it (alchemy) and it also may not be said that I believed in it (alchemy) being very young. At the beginning I was the same inmature and ingorant as you. But when I begun to observe the great mistery of powerful cultivation methods I regretted that I was released from all that difficulties this late. In deeds of studying 5 canons explanations and commentaries assist much, irrigating them (canons) like a pure dew. But for beginners much remains unclear yet. It is even more true applied to the golden plates and jade pages where the Teachings of Immortality are written on. Besides of that a lot of the most important instructions are not written there at all.

 

The Altar is being build, lips are being moistened with blood and only then, after vow of keeping silence is sealed this way, secret instructions are being transmitted from mouth to mouth.

 

If it happens that a person is not suitable for transmitting him these misteries even if he gives (to alchemy teacher) huge lands and entire lines of cities, fill up halls with gold and jade, he wouldn't get a thing (teaching) anyway. (no one would teach him recklessly).

 

Since these instructions point to the depths and lead far away, so even if to write them down, yet a person who haven't recieved them from his Teacher would understand nothing from them: he looks up - and wouldn't see head, he looks down - wouldn't see feet.

 

It is said right about this: "Not knowing, yet doing".